I feel a bit offended by this post - enough to reply!

Do most letterboxers really feel this way? I enjoy geocaching AND
letterboxing,but I find geocaching much more challenging than
letterboxing whether the clue is used or not. Most of the thirty or
so letterboxes I have found have been nice walks in interesting
places, but pretty straightforward. E.g., "follow the yellow blazed
trail, turn left at the second bridge, take the trail at 75 degrees
for 20 paces and look under the fourth tree on the right".

In fact it has been my experience that geocachers who cannot find
a hybrid cache/letterbox with their GPS often resort to using the
letterbox clue.

As the writer points out, there are many more caches than boxes. I
have made it a point to place hybrid caches/letterboxes so that
letterboxers would have INCREASED opportunities. But why waste the
time and effort of carving stamps etc. if they are not appreciated
or if I am "creating letterboxes that few people will enjoy" or
that "everybody hates".

I would appreciate any feedback from letterboxers before I start
carving again!

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen "
wrote:
> Regarding the subject of combining letterboxes and geocaches:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/surveys?id=991636
>
> As of now, 39 people have voted for this poll. A full 72% would
> never combine the two. Only 13% would always combine the two "if
> possible". Based on that, it seems most letterboxers do NOT want
the
> two combined, and anyone that combines the two will be creating
> letterboxes that few people will enjoy.
>
> And it makes sense when you think about it. Why would a
letterboxer
> want to find a geocache? If a letterboxer can't find the box so
> resorts to using the geocache clue, it kind of defeats the point.
>
> A couple of other considerations:
>
> Geocaches tend to be much larger to hold all the junk they need to
be
> called a geocache, which makes them much more difficult to hide
than
> a letterbox.
>
> Sometimes you hear about a letterbox being pulled by the
> authorities. Well, geocaches are too, and your doubling your
chances
> of getting it pulled by authorities if it's listed as both.
>
> On my webpage about creating great letterboxes, the first thing it
is
> says is to select your audience. The reason being if you focus on
> them, you can create a fantastic box they'll absolutely love. If
you
> can't even focus your letterbox for JUST letterboxers, there's no
> chance it's going to be a well-loved letterbox. And who wants to
> hide a letterbox everybody hates?
>
> And finally, there are so many more geocaches than letterboxes to
> begin with, why do they even need more caches in the first
place?!
> Good grief!
>
> There's really no good justification for combining the two, which
is
> a good reason NOT to combine the two.
>
> If you've got a favorite place that you want EVERYONE to go to,
hide
> a geocache. Then hide a letterbox far enough away where
geocachers
> aren't likely to discover it. Then both geocachers and
letterboxers
> can enjoy your favorite little place without stepping on each
other's
> toes.
>
> There aren't many 'rules' to letterboxing, but combining them with
> geocaches ought to be one.
>
> -- Ryan

My goodness, I sure stirred up a hornet's nest with that last post of
mine! But all you folks who replied because you were upset at my
post, don't kill the messenger!

The poll with 39 votes is pretty straight-forward: Most people don't
like hybrid boxes. It's a fact, pure and simple. I'll grant you
that some people DO prefer them (12% or so, in fact!), so if you're
one of those people, by all means, hide them and find them. However,
knowing for a FACT that most people do NOT like those boxes, I'd make
sure the clue included the fact to people who'd prefer not to look
for them don't inadvertantly do so. Your audience is people that
like to find hybrids, so you better make sure the clue reflects the
fact if you don't want to disappoint a lot of people. And I don't
think anyone is out to disappoint others--this hobby is all about
having fun.

To reply to remarks others have had:

> If someone destroys or trashes someone else's box, of either kind,
> they're just an anti-social a**hole, correct?

I'd tend to agree, but who said anything about destroying or trashing
someone else's box? Just because someone doesn't like a particular
box doesn't mean they're going to destroy it! I suppose that sort of
stuff can happen, although I haven't heard of anyone deliberately
destroying another person's box or geocache because they didn't like
it.

> I have made it a point to place hybrid caches/letterboxes so that
> letterboxers would have INCREASED opportunities.

Strange how that works, huh? You try to cater to a LARGER audience,
and fewer people appreciate the effort. Sometimes I just love irony
and the psychological reasons for it.

There are letterboxers who will appreciate your efforts, but it's a
matter of quality vs. quantity. You can hide more boxes this way,
but it looks cheap and half-hearted (at least to me) and I generally
won't go out of my way to find them. I will if I'm in the area, but
I won't go out of my way for them. *shrug* That's just a personal
perference, though, and nothing that should upset you or anyone else.

But look at the facts--letterboxers voted overwhelmingly that they
don't want hybrids. If you really want to cater to the largest
possible letterboxing audience, it would be best to keep them
separate. You don't have to like it, but that's the way it works.

> But why waste the time and effort of carving stamps etc. if they
> are not appreciated or if I am "creating letterboxes that few
> people will enjoy" or that "everybody hates".

It's a bummer, I know, but don't kill the messenger. If it's any
consolation, though, a few letterboxers WILL appreciate the effort.
But most of them won't. If you decide to hide hybrids, at least you
should know the facts.

> I find geocaching much more challenging than
> letterboxing whether the clue is used or not. Most of the thirty or
> so letterboxes I have found have been nice walks in interesting
> places, but pretty straightforward. E.g., "follow the yellow blazed
> trail, turn left at the second bridge, take the trail at 75 degrees
> for 20 paces and look under the fourth tree on the right".

If it's any consolation, I tend to agree. I prefer much more
challenging clues than the ones that lead you directly to the
letterbox. That's not really a good reason to say geocaching is
more 'challenging' than letterboxing, though. It just depends on the
clue maker. Many of my favorite letterboxes are my favorites for no
other reason than especially clever and challenging clues, and I do
wish more people would create them. There ARE alternatives to the
straight-forward clues you mention.

On the other side of the coin, are most of your letterboxing clues
straight-forward like you describe? If so, it would be very
hypocritical to blast letterboxing for those dull, straight-forward
clues when you're partly responsible for creating them yourself!

If you want something more challenging, give my Around the World in
80 Days mystery box a try. I get LOTS of e-mail from people asking
for hints about that box! You don't have to actually go out and find
the box to enjoy figuring out where it's actually located. If you're
ever in Portland, give the Wonderful Tour Series a try. Reading the
clues I didn't think those boxes would be especially difficult to
find, but YIKES! You want a challenge, give that series a try!

A letterboxing clue is only as good as the effort somebody puts into
it. It's astonishing that people will spend so much effort carving
stamps and finding incredible locations for them, then virtually no
effort into a clever/imaginative/challenging/whatever clue. That's
not a reflexion on letterboxing, though, but more a reflection on the
letterboxer who hid it.

> Given the acrimony and rudeness I have seen in letterbox-usa posts
> over the past few weeks, it would seem that lack of finesse,
> thoughtlessness, and inconsidate behavior is not limited to
> geocachers!.

Who said it was limited only to geocachers? There's always been a
certain degree of acrimony and rudeness on EVERY board. If you get a
group of hundreds of people together, not all of them all be as
wonderful and thoughtful as myself. *wink* =) But seriously,
there's bound to me very emtional opinions being thrown back and
forth in any large group of people. But keep in mind, most people on
this board are wonderful people you'd love to invite into your homes,
even those 'jerks' that would dare to express an opinion contrary to
your own.

> Most of the boxes we hide are letterboxes ... we have just doubled
> them as a geocache in order to get more visitors.

There's nothing wrong with that--just keep in mind that not everyone
will appreciate your efforts. You mean well--I think most people
do! They just don't realize how unpopular hybrids are among most
letterboxers.

> Some dislike letterboxers as much as some letterboxers dislike them.

I *think* most letterboxers are of the opinion of letting geocachers
do whatever they want--as long as it doesn't interfere with our
letterboxing. =) I have no ill-well against geocachers, but it
doesn't mean I want to be a part of it--even in the form of hybrids.

-- Ryan, promoting better letterboxes since 1902

Please do not understand - I was not attacking the messenger. My
point was that if the majority letterboxers (34 out of 39) feel the
same way you do, then I will not bother creating letterboxes.
Apparently this is the case. Enough said!

Thank you for expressing your point of view.

No need for everyone to get their undies in a bundle. And we
letterboxers certainly don't need to get all snooty and holier than
thou. Come on!

Some folks are going to like letterboxing better and some folks prefer
to geocache. Then...there are the open-minded people willing to do both.
Aren't there enough wars in the world without provoking this one yet
again?

As I've said before. Let's play nice, kids.

Best regards,

Amanda Briles
The Paisley Orca

I'm not sure what the motive was for this topic except to raise the ire
of combo letterbox/geocachers. "trash" "tramping over the landscape" and
"anti-cache" are strong wordings in your original post. Perhaps they do
come off as "holier than thou" in email form, and not meant as strongly
in your original post.

Apparently someone likes them or they wouldn't combine them. I'm not
sure what the issues is, other than stirring the pot.

Surveys online are a joke. If you put any credit in them I'm amazed. If
you like, I can turn the tide on the poll in a day just to make the
point. All it tells me is that the majority of letterboxers don't care a
whit either way.

Jeremy

-----Original Message-----
From: paisleyorca@webtv.net [mailto:paisleyorca@webtv.net]

No need for everyone to get their undies in a bundle. And we
letterboxers certainly don't need to get all snooty and holier than
thou. Come on!

Jeremy Irish in response to Amanda Briles:

> I'm not sure what the motive was for this topic except to raise the ire
> of combo letterbox/geocachers. "trash" "tramping over the landscape" and
> "anti-cache" are strong wordings in your original post. Perhaps they do
> come off as "holier than thou" in email form, and not meant as strongly
> in your original post.

I believe Jeremy is confusing "Amanda from Seattle", with "Amanda Briles
The Paisley Orca", as "Amanda from Seattle"'s opinion contained the quoted
words above ...

I'm sure Jeremy's mistake was honest.

And to refresh, I believe the motive for the topic was an observation
that a letterbox was possibly replaced by a geocache (followed by other
possible explanations for what was observed in nature). Hopefully the
person with the most information (the one who placed the geocache), will
respond to the inquiry (but its sort of like going to the island of
truthtellers and liars, and asking the first native: "are you a
truthteller"? ...).

As for the rest of the thread, I would say the information content presented
is already in the archives, but that's just my opinion.

Now, as some of you know, most of my posts to this list contain a clue
(just like there is always "superman" in _Seinfeld_). I'm at a loss
this time, tho ...

Cheers

> My point was that if the majority letterboxers (34 out of 39) feel
> the same way you do, then I will not bother creating letterboxes.

It's not the creation of letterboxes that's the problem--it's the
hybrids! Why do you prefer to stop creating letterboxes instead of
geocaches? Create letterboxes instead! Come to light side! ;o)

Seriously, though, it's an easy problem to solve. When you go on a
hike, take a letterbox AND a geocache to hide. Why not? It takes
maybe one extra minute to whip together a box specifically for the
letterbox--you've already been making clues and carving stamps, so
it's not like you'll be adding MORE time. Stick it in another box.
Heck, hide them in the same tree! I've seen geocaches and
letterboxes live harmoniously in the same tree before!

A person can enjoy both letterboxing and geocaching without chasing
hybrids. The only reason for the two hobbies to overlap as hybrids
(as far as I can tell) is because someone is too lazy to put the
stuff into two different containers.

So don't stop hiding letterboxes--just put the stamp and the notebook
in a different container! Letterboxers will be happy. Geocachers I
don't think really care one way or another. (Most don't seem to even
know what letterboxing is in the first place, which is why hybrids
have stamps that go missing all the time.) Everyone's happy, and all
you're out is maybe one minute of your time and a cheap, Ziplock
container or something. =)

-- Ryan

> Surveys online are a joke. If you put any credit in them I'm
> amazed. If you like, I can turn the tide on the poll in a day just
> to make the point.

*hehe* I tend to agree that online surveys are a joke, but have you
got a better method? And assuming a random assortment of people from
this board had voted on it before the issue blew up on the talk list,
I suspect there's some degree of validity to it.

But from the minute I made a reference to it, I wouldn't take any
additions to it worth a grain of salt, because people like you might
turn the tide of the poll in a day just to make a point. The point
would have been better made if you turned the tide BEFORE I pointed
the poll out.

Nobody had an agenda to screw around with the poll until after I
brought it up to the table, so I suspect while it's not
scientifically highly accurate, it's a pretty good sentiment about
the general consensus. But you only have to talk to a few
letterboxers to figure that out without a poll.

For what it's worth, when I started letterboxing, I didn't see the
harm in having hybrids. Why NOT?! What do I care who goes looking
for my letterboxes? The only reason I didn't was because I didn't
have a GPS. Ah, I was certainly nieve in my beginning days. =)
Anyhow, after a little letterboxing experience (and finding a couple
of geocaches as well), it's really not in the best interest of a
letterbox. And, in fact, it's not even really necessary since it's
just as easy to hide a geocache and letterbox in separate containers.

-- Ryan

> Now, as some of you know, most of my posts to this list contain a
> clue (just like there is always "superman" in _Seinfeld_).

Really? I didn't know that! Is there a website or something I could
go to pointing out all these Randy-isms? =) I've got to start
reading your posts more often!

-- Ryan